Talk: Hollow Man

== Armoured Hollow Men ==


Has anybody noticed that the helmets of the armoured Hollow Men [http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/5555/pbum.jpg appear to be wearing helmets similar in design to the Guard caps] worn in the original Fable? [http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2259/vk0j.jpg It looks like a cross between a Guard cap] and a lobster-tailed pot helmet from the English Civil War, with added crest. Could they be a variant of the Albion Guard between Fable 2 and Fable 1? [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 04:54, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

:Honestly I fail to see any resemblance between a metallic helmet and a leather/cloth cap used in the [[Guard Uniform]]. For now, I shall remove the trivia from the article, and leave discussion of whether it is accurate here, like a debate. This will allow the consensus to vote/give their opinion as to whether they agree with you or disagree. The helmet is more based on the Spanish Conquistador helmet as seen [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Casco_espa%C3%B1ol_s._XVI_%28M._Am%C3%A9rica,_Madrid%29_01.jpg here], and referenced in the trivia already. However, that is my opinion and until the rest of the Fable Wiki community put in their opinions, the trivia should remain out for now.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 03:59, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

:It doesn't look anything like a morion though, it's a totally differenty style. In point of actual fact it's more reminiscent of the helmet of what is called a "dragoon", a type of mounted soldier from a few centuries later than Conquistadors. It's just a metal Guard cap with crest. Which makes sense since they're in tattered uniform remnants and the only standing army that Albion has was the Guard. [http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/7202/0pq6.jpg I took the liberty of providing a side-by-side comparison as evidence and proof of my claims.] It can plainly be seen that the helmet is an evolution of the Guard cap.{{UnsignedIP|86.133.241.48}} [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 04:54, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::The only resemblance between the guards cap and the hollow men helmet is they both have the brim sticking out the front, nothing more nothing less. The guards cap has a neck-guard flap, yet the hollow men helmet doesn't. The Hollow Men helmet has a solid brim around the back instead. And I didn't say it looks exactly like the Conquistador helmet, just based around it. Although I do think it resembles the Roman legion helmet, minus the fur. The guard cap more resembles a modern day [http://image.ec21.com/image/shandan515/oimg_GC07284118_CA08251411/Children_Lycra_Sun_Protection_Cap_with_Neck_Guard%252FSummer_Headwear%252FSwim_Hat.jpg cap] worn mostly in schools to protect children from sunburn on the back of the neck. And please remember to sign your posts, I've added a template for a signature to your last posts.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 03:19, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::The only resemblance? That's basically the only two features of that helmet alongside the crest. The peak "cap" styling with neckguard. We saw a similar design with [[Welley's Soldier Outfit]]. The helmet of the Hollow Men is very obviously an evolution in both design and protection over the original Guard cap. Looks to me that the Hollow Men are corpses of Guards from sometime between Fable 1 and Fable 2 because they're stylised to look like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundhead Roundheads] or as you say [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conquistador Conquistadors], which in terms of time period falls somewhere between the Middle Ages and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment the Enlightenment] (so [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance the Renaissance] I guess), much like the eras that Fable 1 and 2 appear to be set in. Besides, who else would it be? I just think it's worth mentioning that some thought was put into the skeletons and that they tie into Albion's history more than you might think. [[Special:Contributions/86.133.241.48|[[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC)]] 04:54, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::A flaw in your theory though. You are using the picture of a hollow man from Fable III/Journey which does not correspond with the fact you are claiming them to be the dead guards from a time between Fable and II. The fact that the Hollow Men from Fable II are designed like skeletal villagers adds to this. Besides, any bones the wisps would need to access would have to be from a short time period prior to Fable II as if I recall my old human biology classes, human bones decompose over a 10 year period. And for them to be a guard from within that time range, they'd have to have similar outfits to the guards present in Fable II. If anything, the helmet you used from those photos would be a dead Welley's soldier, not a guard from Fable. However, as I stated in my first post, if you can get a consensus agreeing that it is such then it can be added to the page.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 06:47, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::Any discrepencies between the Hollow Men from Fable 2 and 3 could be reasonably explained away by change of location or something so trivial as a design choice although it's a good point. In regards to human bone decomposition I doubt that Lionhead cared much for the intricacies of bone deterioration rate. I think the design point is the best explanation because in Fable 3 they paid much more attention to the Guard and really fluffed them out a bit, in terms of how they look and their general story. It's plausible to assume they did the same with the Hollow Men, to really give the world of Fable 3 a palpable sense of it's own history. What better way of doing that than having you fight the corpses of Guards from an earlier era? I'm hard pressed to think of who else they could be given that they appear to be uniformed soldiers, and from their armour the time period most likely seems to be between Fable 1 and 2. [[Special:Contributions/86.133.241.48|86.133.241.48]] 07:04, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

:::Actually the guards in Fable III are the royal soldiers who replaced the old guard, hence the need for an upgraded appearance. Besides that, they couldn't really have the old guards due to the new development style, it'd look out of place to have bulky guards who look like they just won a pie eating contest. It is plausible that Albion was invaded between the years of the games, just because we the player don't get to go much outside Albion doesn't mean there isn't a whole world. But lets go with it ignoring the development styles, using the fact that the Ablion Army in Fable III is an upgrade from the old guards. Why would the hollow men in Fable II be villagers, yet the hollow men in Fable III are soldiers? Why would the wisps choose to use unarmoured skeletons rather then accessing the guards and looking as they did in Fable III and onwards? Looking at things in that angle, I'd have to say the invasion idea looks good. It could be how Walter fought beside Sparrow, something that was never actually looked into by the games. It mentions they fought side by side in a battle, heck Walter later even said that him and his platoon were trapped by enemy soldiers, soldiers that could be from outside Albion. To me, to work on this requires more speculation then it does fact. Unless a developer from Lionhead gave a statement that they did such. However, as is the normal way of things here, a consensus is open for vote. If people agree with your idea, it shall be put on the article page. Otherwise its noted here for people to use as a theory for their personal ideas when either roleplaying or making fan fiction.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 07:19, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::::I agree with Alpha Lycos, they look different. You have also to consider that Hollow Men's helmets are metallic, while the guard cap isn't. --''[[User:M3t4lxxx|M3t4lxxx]] <sup>([[w:c:fable:User talk:M3t4lxxx|Leave me a message]])</sup>'' 07:57, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::::Actually the red coated soldiers you see in Fable 3 *are* the Guard, their duties have just diversified as they've moved with the times. Much like how modern Grenadiers don't just lob grenades any more, and Dragoons aren't cavalrymen/horse mounted infantry. As to their helmets being metal and the caps being cloth; why would that even matter? Classical Greek helmets were based on cloth hats more often than not, such as the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilos Pileus], [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeotian_helmet Boeotian] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_helmet Phrygian] variants. The helmet of the Hollow Men and the cloth cap of the Guard bear striking similarities. I already explained why the Hollow Men in Fable 1, 2 and 3 would differ. Mere design choice on the part of the developers. Like the discrepencies shown with Hobbes, and how the developers can't decide if they're naturally occurring mudmen or child mutants. Not gonna lie, the invasion angle is plausible and appealing but it's something of a stretch when the answer could be as simple as "the Hollow Men corpses are former Guardsmen". [[Special:Contributions/86.133.241.48|[[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC)]] 09:26, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::::The helmet's material counts, since the only guards wearing a metallic helmet are [[Elite Soldiers]], but their helmet is really different from the ones of Hollow Men. Otherwise, we'll have to assume that after Fable II, guards were given metallic helmets which were later replaced by [[wikipedia:shako|shakos]]. Also Hollow Men have metallic armour, which no guard has ever had. --''[[User:M3t4lxxx|M3t4lxxx]] <sup>([[w:c:fable:User talk:M3t4lxxx|Leave me a message]])</sup>'' 09:48, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

:::
Your argument is terrible. You're presupposing some kind of chronic metal shortage in Albion, which is ofc patently absurd.  Assuming that they are indeed guards, they're guards of a different era and with a different uniform, that's all. That of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment the Enlightenment], or at least Albion during it's analogous phase which would put them somewhere between Fable 2 and 3, technologically speaking (I was wrong about their origins being somewhere between the first and second games, since the first game would be set during [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages the Middle Ages], the second is set during [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance the Renaissance] and the third the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment Age of Enlightenment]). The Hollow Men are most likely just corpses of Guards from that particular era in Albion's timeline. Elaborating on that, it's possible that they could even be prototypical Royal Army soldiers. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Model_Army A New Model Army], as it were. [http://www.naval-military-press.com/images/T/8591.jpg The soldiers] of [http://www.doyle.com.au/images/crom_sold.jpg that army] [http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3103/2787063614_1a4aff1e8b_o.jpg look remarkably] like the Hollow Men, wouldn't you say? Never mind that the description of the New Model Army sounds exactly like the transition from Guards to Royal Army. "It differed from other armies in the series of civil wars referred to as the Wars of the Three Kingdoms in that it was intended as an army liable for service anywhere in the country (including in Scotland and Ireland), rather than being tied to a single area or garrison. Its soldiers became full-time professionals, rather than part-time militia." [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 10:50, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

:::Actually I'm just pointing out that we have no evidence that those guards ever existed, and if they did and they were given metallic equipment, then why was metal later replaced with cloth (which offers less protection in combat). Also Hollow Men use a variety of melee weapons, while Guards only have swords, so we would have to assume they were some kind of special guards, but, again, we don't have any evidence of their existence. --''[[User:M3t4lxxx|M3t4lxxx]] <sup>([[w:c:fable:User talk:M3t4lxxx|Leave me a message]])</sup>'' 13:14, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

:::For the same reasons it was phased out in the real world. Against concentrated firepower it was rendered useless. I should stress that it isn't the real world however. It's Fable. Lionhead probably thought it would be cool to throw in a reference to the New Model Army and tie it to the Guards/Royal Army. They modelled the Royal Army after [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_coat_%28British_army%29 the Redcoats], it only makes logical sense that the predecessors to the Royal Army were similar to the predecessors of the Redcoats, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Model_Army the New Model Army], and so would have looked identical to those Hollow Men corpses. And what else could those bodies be but former Guardsmen? They must be native to Albion at least, since there's no mention of any invasions between the events of Fable 2 and 3. Battles yes, since there's a painting of an Albion warship engaged in combat and reference to battles fought, but none on native soil. To go back to the metal armour, in fairness it probably would have been pretty expensive to buy, but with the organisational and financial backing of the Hero of Bowerstone and his reforms a standardised and effective for it's time uniform would make sense. [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 13:32, September 3, 2013 (UTC)


::You have to take into account that not all Hollow men use the armour, only some. And the armour actually used looks more like the [[Warrior Suit]] rather then any guards ever. You mentioned above, in response to my argument about the guards in Fable III, that they are an upgraded version of the guards yet if that is the case they'd have top notch armour, but instead they merely wear cloth outfits with a cloth hat, possibly leather at most. This would seem more like a downgrade upon your proposed idea, why would they advance the guards to metallic helmets then revert to common clothing? There might not be any mention of invasion, doesn't mean it didn't happen. The games never made mention of what happened to the Heroes guild, that was dealt with by Tales of Albion, which is gone now. And the fact that Walter actually talks of a battle on home ground in which he was trapped in a cave, likely from foreign soldiers from how he speaks.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 23:45, September 3, 2013 (UTC)

::That's because not all Hollow Men are former Guards. Those without armour look more like villagers. And you're actually still talking about their armour? It cannot be stressed enough that removal of the armour isn't merely a downgrade, it's just their moving with the times. Or do you think that modern soldiers should be decked out in full plate armour maybe? The games actually do say what happened to the Heroes' Guild, which is to say it was overrun by an angry mob. It was mentioned in Fable 2 and Fable 3, as well as the Tales of Albion. Did you even read anything else I said? If the Royal Army is based on the real world British redcoats (which I expect you to fervently deny, ofc because they simply must be...Aztec, or w/e you want to argue) then their predecessors would have been identical to the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Model_Army New Model Army], and as such would have looked identical to the Hollow Men. The armoured Hollow Men are very obviously meant to be former Guards, and a giant British nod to the New Model Army. Given that there's no mention of any invading foreign armies whatsoever, it stands to reason that those soldiers are native to Albion. And the standing army that Albion has always had was....the Guard. [[Special:Contributions/86.133.241.48|[[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC)]] 18:43, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

::Ohhh and as further proof, the Hollow Men appear to be wearing faded red/blue/black uniforms (Guard colours) and during the quest [[Bored to Death]] you have to fight a Hollow Man boss who is clearly native (so native in fact that he was a part of Lionhead Studios. Mark Llabres Hill). Never mind the cap that's styled like the classic Guards. And would you care explaining the Hollow Man guardsman in the concept art? [http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2011/07/923_max.jpg Right here.] I'm going to go ahead and point out that Albion is synonymous with Britain and we've never been successfully invaded past the Dark Ages. If Albion had ever been invaded by a foreign power it would have been burned so badly into their psyche they wouldn't just up and forget about it and would have borne a mention at least. The thought of Britain proper being invaded is to Britons what home soil invasion is to Americans. Utterly unthinkable, after centuries and a couple of world wars of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splendid_isolation splendid isolation]. [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 20:27, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

::Never mind, did some digging [http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1392/2axu.jpg and found this little titbit in the official Fable 3 art book]. Jon Eckersley was the Lead Character/Creature Artist at Lionhead. The Civil War alluded to is, ofc, the English Civil War, and the side that won that was...the New Model Army. Making the Hollow Men both former Guardsmen and inspired by the New Model Army, as I stated.  [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 22:22, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

:::I just want to add one little bit in regards to a couple of your previous statements. One: Modern day soldiers are usually kitted out in armour, bullet-proof to be exact. It might not be the same as back in medieval times but its still similar and not a downgrade. However in the Fable games all guardsmen have ever worn is cloth, fabric with no protective value ever. Two: Even though Albion is synonymous with Britain it doesn't make them exactly the same, unless Britain somehow has supreme magic we don't know about with werewolf creatures and skeletal monsters running around. Albion, like I said, is based in an alternate universe to the real one, meaning anything that could happen might have happened. Where I live, New Zealand, has been invaded in the past, yet they never speak of such events. It is possible that people could avoid talking about it to avoid heartache of their lost loved ones, or in case it jinx's them to repeat it. But as you had found out, the info seems to be in the art book, however going just from the page you showed there is no confirmation of which civil war it references. It might be the English Civil War, or it could be a made up one for the world of Albion based around some weird magical plant that only grows once a thousand years and the populace split into two to decide who should own it. We won't know unless a dev comes out and says it, and they are tricky people to deal with when they can be bothered responding to their fanbase via the lionhead forums.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 23:20, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

:::Seriously? There isn't any mention of a Civil War fought in Albion in the past, so he's probably talking about the English Civil War, and working that into the history of Albion. We can then use all the evidence given us by the game itself to surmise that if it were a Civil War in Albion itself, not only is it based on the English Civil War, it's also set between Fable 2 and 3 since they're using guns and appear to be professional soldiers. Maybe the Hero of Bowerstone didn't create his monarchy as bloodlessly as we thought. That too would explain the battles that living characters in Fable 3 had fought on native soil. As to armour, I'll point you again to British history. The New Model Army incorporated breastplates and other armour but that was later "downgraded" to cloth as it entered into the Redcoat era. Like, for example, the difference between the Hollow Men and Royal Army soldiers. I've been right in all regards so far. [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 23:35, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

::::Okay you are taking this as "Fable game world Albion is an exact copy of Britain Albion, so the civil war must be the real world one" which is wrong. The mere fact that this is based in a game world which only takes miniscule things from the real world means that it could have been any civil war possible, even one such as two people bickering over who is correct in a matter and escalating into full out war. Unless the developers of the game come out and say "Oh by the way, the Albion in Fable is an exact copy of the real world" any guesses or comparissons to reality is speculation and unbased. Yes there are similarities, but that doesn't mean its play for play of an exact copy. And besides that, there is the fact that in Fable III it is mentioned that Logan has been travelling outside of Albion for years, whether he brought back prisoners who had armour on or not has never been said. And the fact of Logan travelling isn't made until nearly the end of the game, and its shown that it was kept secret so is it not possible that the only ones who truly know of the invasions could have been Logan and his special army? We cannot say a definite yes or no to that, which puts my previous arguments into just as much right as yours.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 05:59, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

::::Actually I'm just going off of what the devs have to say. Like what the Lead Creature Designer had to say about his own creations. I'm not that into fan fiction. I'm right in this case, and the Hollow Men are expressly said to be based on the Civil War and mirrored in Albion. There's literaly no other Civil War in the world of Fable he could be talking about and those Hollow Men look exactly like English Civil War soldiers. As I stated before, and as Jon Eckersley (an official source) went ahead and said. Fable is chock full of British references and everything in it relates to the world of Albion. They wouldn't randomly throw in foreign soldiers. That at least explains why their helmets are reminiscent of the old Guard caps too. The whole point in the Hollow Men looking like Civil War soldiers was to make the Hollow Legion quests more interesting since it pitted current generation Albion soldiers against an earlier variety. As the Lead Creature Designer said. So yes, it's not even up for question. Feel free to use your idea as a theory for your personal ideas when either roleplaying or making fan fiction though. [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:24, September 5, 2013 (UTC) 08:16, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

:::::The exact words you are referencing is this "The hollow men in Fable III reflect two eras - the bodies of fallen soldiers from the Civil War, and the deceased bodies of those fighting to contain the former". Now correct me if I'm wrong but is it not at all possible that the hollow men with a design based on the current soldiers from Fable III could be the dead soldiers fighting hollow men in Mourning Wood? Or am I completely wrong and they are just some real world soldiers? All in all the main reason for the armour is just an appearance in graphics, reading too much into it causes arguments like these. I only went on with it because I enjoy the occasional debate, but you are looping on yourself too much for me to keep interest. The only thing you seem to focus on is that there has not been any mention of past civil wars, but not all civil wars are worth mentioning. In the real world there have been civil wars based in one or two towns that only get mentioned if you look at the newspapers of that exact moment, nothing after nothing before. In the games the info we are given is 90% about the storyline with the last 10% about the few NPC's worthy of talk. If they don't randomly throw in foreign soldiers, why are the Elite Soldiers Logan is commissioning based on ancient Greek soldiers? Funny how that is so British that it has to be from our real world Albion.--[[User:Alpha Lycos|Lycos Devanos]] [[w:c:fable:User_talk:Alpha Lycos|Drop me a line]] 08:40, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

:::::Since when were the Elite Soldiers based on ancient Greeks? They're nothing of the sort. They're just a meaner looking variant of the Royal Army, dyed royal purple. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_Division Household Guard], essentially. Very British indeed. Not all civil wars are worth mentioning, but if you're referring to it in capitals and as *the* Civil War then yes it probably would be worth mentioning. Since there aren't any before the events of Fable 3 the only logical assumption left is the English Civil War which is further reinforced by Civil War era uniforms of the Hollow Men, albeit with some Guard stylings such as the helmet. It's not the first time they reference real world epochs, since the Royal Army is described as "straight out of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regency_era the Regency]". [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 08:54, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

== And now for something totally different ==

Sorry to interupt your thought provoking debate but does anyone notice that there is no mention of Hollow Men being in Fable: The Journey? Whose bodies are they? [[User:Garry Damrau|Garry Damrau]]([[User talk:Garry Damrau|talk]]) 19:04, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Looks like [http://www.rich-hammond3d.com/content/graphics/full/journey_hollowmen_render.jpg the guys on the right] are wearing a variant of the Albion flag. Seems like something else retroactively shoehorned in by Lionhead. Suppose they'd have to be Old Kingdom soldiers. [[User:TheXand|TheXand]] ([[User talk:TheXand|talk]]) 19:10, September 5, 2013 (UTC)